Hi all,
Just looking for advice on the fitting of 3 point belts (front & rear) into my 1959 standard beetle. As far as I can see I need to get plates with the correct thread size welded into the door pillar and the rear panel behind the rear window as the car doesn't have any bolt holes at these points.
I've got a couple of questions based on this:
1. Does this mean that the car should have the correct bolt holes for 2 point belts already? I can't find any. Pointers as to their location would be great.
2. If they do exist do I need thread adapters to take the thread from 22mm to 7/8's?
3. I can't currently weld. Can anyone recommend a reputable garage in Southern England that will do the necessary welding (I'd prefer to take it to somewhere that have done similar work before)?
4. If anyone has done this job before on a similar car any pictures would be gratefully received :)
thanks in advance,
Gareth
Posted by: GKL 7 - 22 August 2008 18:58:36
[-x Don't do it
Posted by: Grifflad - 22 August 2008 19:09:32
Why not?
I know it's not with the keeping of the car but I've got a new family and it's our daily driver. I've been quite happy to run about with just me in it without seat belts but my situation has changed.
Just to clarify I'm not going to fit them myself.
cheers,
Gareth
Posted by: GKL 7 - 22 August 2008 19:34:21
[quote=Grifflad]Why not?
[/quote]
Drilling holes,welding in plates,repainting etc.
Not a simple fix.OK if you want to sacrifice the originality of your car.
And much as it pains me to say it,not the safest of cars to drive your new family around in.
It's only my opinion.Others will no doubt disagree.
Posted by: Grifflad - 22 August 2008 21:45:32
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. All points taken, I'm just loathe to have to sell the car. I've owned it 8 years and it's by no means concours by any stretch of the imagination but I love it. If I'm going to do it I want it done as well as possible.
Thanks for you comments/opinions they are valid and have given me something to consider.
regards,
Grifflad
Posted by: JD - 22 August 2008 22:29:46
You can have race style harnesses bolted through between the rear seat base and back, and through the floorpan without welding, but then your backseat space will be gone, which probably defeats what you were after in the first place.
Posted by: harveypj - 22 August 2008 22:39:53
[url=https://]https://www.quickfitsbs.com/[/url]
Having 2 youngsters myself I have also got a simlar dilema with my 58.
I found this company, they can custom build/fit seat belts/harnesses to suit all ages of car. A work colleauge is into classic Rovers (:roll: I know)and tells me several of his clubs members have used them and have been happy with the results.
Posted by: tman - 26 August 2008 23:37:06
[quote=harveypj][url=https://www.quickfitsbs.com/]https://www.quickfitsbs.com/[/url][/quote]
Fixed link :d
Posted by: dp - 28 August 2008 18:50:49
[quote='50 Karmann]
Drilling holes,welding in plates,repainting etc.
Not a simple fix.OK if you want to sacrifice the originality of your car.
And much as it pains me to say it,not the safest of cars to drive your new family around in.
It's only my opinion.Others will no doubt disagree.[/quote]
In my opinion, seatbelts are an essential safety feature for any age of car and do not distract from the originality (even concours judges wouldn’t (usually) mark a car down for having seatbelts fitted if done well in a sympathetic manner). If you want to drive with children in a car, it’s the law in the UK to have them appropriately restrained irrespective of the age of the vehicle. Please do as you feel you need to - the safety of you and your family is paramount (but note that collapsible steering columns, padded steering wheels and dashes, airbags etc. etc. do not fall into this category :wink: ).
[quote=JD]
You can have race style harnesses bolted through between the rear seat base and back, and through the floorpan without welding, but then your backseat space will be gone, which probably defeats what you were after in the first place.
[/quote]
There are 2 main problems if you use a racing harness without a roll cage (and I’m not suggesting you fit one):
1. the shoulder belts should come off the back of the rear seat at no more of an angle than 20 degrees from horizontal (otherwise you run the risk of spinal compression in a crash)
2. If you roll the car and the roof comes in on you you will be stuck (and squashed) in the seat - with a normal three point belt you would (most likely) slip to one side.
Hope this helps.
Posted by: Standard split - 28 August 2008 22:43:06
[quote][/quote]'Just looking for advice on the fitting of 3 point belts (front & rear) into my 1959 standard beetle.'[quote][/quote]
I hope that it is not an actual Standard Model [-x
Seatbelts ruin a vintage car:!: Get a Euro Box, don't butcher a car that's survived 50 years. One day someone will be cursing you as they try to rid the car of the rotten things:evil:
Posted by: harveypj - 31 August 2008 20:48:04
[quote=Standard split]Seatbelts ruin a vintage car:!: [/quote]
Yeh, but going through the windscreen does'nt do much for the ocupants either:cry:
Posted by: Standard split - 01 September 2008 15:35:08
[quote][/quote]Yeh, but going through the windscreen does'nt do much for the ocupants either[quote][/quote]
Well Harvey, if safety is such a concern to you, get a real safe modern car. As much as we all love our vintage VWs, an ancient car is not the thing to be in with your wife and kids if you're really hung-up on safety and planning on driving any distance:!:
I don't fancy driving around in a Type II because I just don't see much between my legs and an on-coming car, other that a single sheet of metal, yet people fit seat belts in them to be safe:!:
These classic VWs are great, they are valuable collector's items – just that, not to be ruined with seat belts. In a collision, they have no chance against a big 4x4 or most modern cars in fact. I'm sure the government think just that, and probably why it's not been made compulsory to fit seat belts in ancient cars of which there is also no proper mountings. They rely on people using common sense[-x
Posted by: harveypj - 01 September 2008 18:52:43
[quote=Standard split]
Well Harvey, if safety is such a concern to you, get a real safe modern car. As much as we all love our vintage VWs, an ancient car is not the thing to be in with your wife and kids if you're really hung-up on safety and planning on driving any distance:!:
I don't fancy driving around in a Type II because I just don't see much between my legs and an on-coming car, other that a single sheet of metal, yet people fit seat belts in them to be safe:!:
These classic VWs are great, they are valuable collector's items – just that, not to be ruined with seat belts. In a collision, they have no chance against a big 4x4 or most modern cars in fact. I'm sure the government think just that, and probably why it's not been made compulsory to fit seat belts in ancient cars of which there is also no proper mountings. They rely on people using common sense[-x [/quote]
Whats with all the :!: :!: ........chill out dude,
I agree, having a vintage VW as a daily is probably not the safest choice and one I'd not entertain (personaly).
We are fortunate and also have 2 modern cars, you've got to appreciate that not every one's personal cercumstances are the same, and as you quite correctly point out we all love our vintage VW's.
My Wife and particularly my 2 kids love our Bug so why should they not enjoy the ride too?[-x
The addition of correctly designed/proffesionaly fitted seat belts can only make a car safer. that is common sense, and I'd even go as far as saying 'fact'.
Rightly or wrongly I have so far not fitted belts to my 58 (I like original, have considered my driving record/ annual bug millage etc etc) but can appreciate other peoples considerations will be different.
:shock: 'Government....common sense...in the same sentance:? :lol:
Posted by: GKL 7 - 01 September 2008 20:09:37
[quote=harveypj]
I like original
[/quote]
Yeah!Didn't stop you from repainting it 'tho, did it.:lol: :!: :lol: :!: :lol: :!: :lol:
Couldn't resist that one.:wink:
Posted by: harveypj - 01 September 2008 21:50:16
Got rid of the rust though :wink:
Posted by: dp - 01 September 2008 23:09:27
[quote=Standard split]I don't fancy driving around in a Type II because I just don't see much between my legs and an on-coming car, other that a single sheet of metal, yet people fit seat belts in them to be safe:!: [/quote]
I accept that if I have a head on collision in my type 2, I may never walk again - wearing a seatbelt should hopefully mean I'm alive though.
[quote=Standard split]These classic VWs are great, they are valuable collector's items – just that, not to be ruined with seat belts. In a collision, they have no chance against a big 4x4 or most modern cars in fact. I'm sure the government think just that, and probably why it's not been made compulsory to fit seat belts in ancient cars of which there is also no proper mountings. They rely on people using common sense[-x [/quote]
The government don't generally have a habit of retrospectively applying rules for new cars to older cars, plain and simple - when they first made seat belts compulsory, those without them were not ancient. The law states that you can choose if you want to drive without seatbelts if they weren't originally fitted, but you can't make that decision for your children - this is because they (and you) are far safer wearing one. My life is more valuable than any collectors item.
Of course it's your choice at the end of the day, but when you're trying to convince someone else of the same choice, the other side of the argument needs to be heard.
Posted by: Mike Peckham - 01 September 2008 23:21:52
[quote=dp]
The law states that you can choose if you want to drive without seatbelts if they weren't originally fitted, but you can't make that decision for your children - this is because they (and you) are far safer wearing one. [/quote]
Does this mean that legally speaking children are not permitted to travel in my 1957 beetle as it has no seat belts fitted? If that is the case, and I can understand the logic, it might be what sways me to fit them.
Mike
Posted by: GKL 7 - 01 September 2008 23:33:32
[quote=dp]
My life is more valuable than any collectors item.[/quote]
100% true.
Everybodys is.
And i do not blame you for wanting seat belts.
But i still maintain a 50+ year old beetle is not the place for your young family.
You need airbags,seatbelts, ABS and what ever else you can get.
Those children are priceless,your Volkswagen is not.
Posted by: harveypj - 01 September 2008 23:50:27
[quote='50 Karmann]
But i still maintain a 50+ year old beetle is not the place for your young family.
[/quote]
Have to agree realy George.
It's always the good things that are bad for you:( . A bit like eating choclate:d . Everything in moderation I say. The odd show can't do much harm in the overall scheme of things.
Posted by: dp - 02 September 2008 06:56:28
[quote=Mike Peckham]
Does this mean that legally speaking children are not permitted to travel in my 1957 beetle as it has no seat belts fitted? If that is the case, and I can understand the logic, it might be what sways me to fit them.
Mike[/quote]
It all depends how old (or tall) they are and where you want them to sit. Check here for the exact details: [url=https://www.childcarseats.org.uk/law/index.htm#kids311]https://www.childcarseats.org.uk/law/index.htm#kids311[/url]
[quote='50 Karmann]
But i still maintain a 50+ year old beetle is not the place for your young family.
[/quote]
You're probably right - my kids will most likely be grown up by the time I get the car back on the road anyway.
Posted by: Standard split - 02 September 2008 20:24:21
[quote][/quote]I accept that if I have a head on collision in my type 2, I may never walk again - wearing a seatbelt should hopefully mean I'm alive though.[quote][/quote]
Can't really see that having no legs is any sort of compromise – I'd rather have no Type II :wink:
[quote][/quote]The government don't generally have a habit of retrospectively applying rules for new cars to older cars, plain and simple[quote][/quote]
Wish the MOT people thought this about windscreen washers having to be on my 1930s Tatra's and 1940/50's Beetles…
If somebody fits seat belts to their ancient VW to make it safer for their kids, then why don't they replace the cable brakes, semaphores, small rear window etc, etc with something safer – maybe replace the lot with a new car :shock:
Posted by: harveypj - 02 September 2008 21:21:02
[quote=Standard split]If somebody fits seat belts to their ancient VW to make it safer for their kids, then why don't they replace the cable brakes, semaphores, small rear window etc, etc with something safer – maybe replace the lot with a new car :shock:
[/quote]
Because they are already there:roll:
Cable breaks do stop a car, semaphores do indicate and you can see out of a small rear window. Having no seat belts will not stop you being thrown from the car but if you fit them they will.
Maybe they like old cars
Posted by: Standard split - 02 September 2008 22:01:13
Well I don't own a modern car, and don't want one. The newest in my collection is 1958.
BUT most other drivers do not recognize semaphores – they don't appear in the UK Highway Code, so someone is more likely to smash into you when you turn right than if you have flashing direction signals. I love my split rear window view – but the blind spot is huge. [-x
The seat belts in a 50 year plus car will not stop passengers being crushed when it is caved in by a 4x4:!:
Cable brakes are fine for me, but I don't think that if I had a full passenger load in the car, in an emergency that it would stop as well as a car with modern braking technology - I know it wouldn't. But well maintained cable brakes are as good as early Beetle hydraulic brakes in my experience. But I would not be happy driving around in an ancient car with 3 or 4 kids in today's traffic. If you do this you are selfishly compromising you children's safety for you own hobby/interest.
Fitting seat belts in a vintage car is a compromise – a compromise of your passengers' safety I'm afraid :wink:
Posted by: harveypj - 02 September 2008 22:44:58
[quote=harveypj]
I agree, having a vintage VW as a daily is probably not the safest choice and one I'd not entertain (personaly).
[/quote]
I think we are genaraly on the same wave length. Yes semaphores are'nt always seen, we have blind spots, crap mirrors will probably be crushed in a crash, thus my above quote.
Compromise yes, but if one chooses to, its better than doing nothing, surly
Posted by: jonathan.28 - 02 September 2008 23:22:39
It seems to me that there are two arguments developing here from standard split. To begin with, that it is wrong to modify an early volkswagen by fitting seatbelts because they are collectors items and shouldn't be modified. And now that there's no point fitting them because early volkswagens are not safe to drive around in anyway. Obviously this is a discussion, and in a discussion points develop, but this is a bit of a leap. Is there a definitive reason why seatbelts shouldn't be fitted, or is it a bit of both?
Personally I believe, however beautiful, rare and collectable vintage cars are, they are cars, and cars are to driven, otherwise I'm not sure what the point is in them still existing, and thus if you have children you wish to carry there is no choice. Secondly, I think the 4x4 argument is a little bit irrelevant. When these vintage cars were modern there were plenty of large and much less safe vehicles on the road to have collisions with, and moreover, horrific accients, whatever car you or van you are in, lead to horrific injuries.
Posted by: Standard split - 03 September 2008 15:23:45
[quote][/quote]When these vintage cars were modern there were plenty of large and much less safe vehicles on the road to have collisions with[quote][/quote]
Yes… but today we have the choice of very safe cars with strong passenger cells to carry children and babies in :o
In a nutshell, I think seat belts ruin a classic car. Don't fit them. Carrying your family around frequently in an ancient car could ruin them, so don't do it.
A decent, safe, modern second-hand car is not very expensive :wink:
Posted by: mrsherbie - 12 September 2008 01:41:10
[quote=Grifflad]
4. If anyone has done this job before on a similar car any pictures would be gratefully received :)
thanks in advance,
Gareth[/quote]
Hi, we have a Swedish 59 that has had seatbelts fitted back in the 70's or 80's and very well done indeed, I will take pics and post them up but not for over a week as the car is not here.
I do agree, it is a dilemma. Our 50's do not have them, so my 10yr old does not drive anywhere in either of those, so now my oval does not have them either, also none in the 356, so that is 4 cars she cannot go in..:( Although she has been out in the 356 as the rear seats are so low in the car, but I am not over happy about it.
I am not sure what the answer is myself either. So far we are lucky that we usually take 2 vehicles to shows, the samba (has belts) or T5 but [i]IF[/i] we did'nt have this choice and I had just the 1 old beetle, I [i]would[/i] consider fitting them in the oval. My daughter used to get driven everywhere in my 63 and she loved that car because of it, and I do feel that she is missing out with our older cars now that she cannot travel in any at all. No more trips to school on sunny summer mornings ( not that we get those these days :?
We only use our beetles for 1 or 2 shows each year probably because of it. But once my new daily 79 Kab is back on the road next year I forecast that I will just enjoy looking at our old cars in the garage instead. Aha! Problem solved :d :lol:
Posted by: Etzhold1 - 12 September 2008 10:10:13
I do not have seatbelts in my old VW's, but If I would use them as a daily driver I would do that for sure ! Do you guy's forgot the terrible crash that Traugutt had about a year ago with his Porsche:cry: , ask Christian how greatfull they are they had seatbelts in the car! Even if you're a save driver there are alway's drunk drivers:beer: :beer: and youngsters on the road who are thinking they are on a "race track" even on sunny sunday mornings !
Posted by: GKL 7 - 12 September 2008 19:58:56
[quote=mrsherbie] my new daily 79 Kab [/quote] [ATTACH]2015[/Attach]
I personally think that this is one mod that is worth doing, if you plan to cart around kids or use it daily!:wink:
The 55 hasnt got any because her headliner is all original and she is not used much!
Where as my 63 going to be my daily in a few months and that has got front belts, just laps but they will do the trick!:d 8)
Posted by: mrsherbie - 01 February 2009 10:09:36
oops (I must of deleted that pic by mistake)
In the light of Mr & Mrs Grundmann's lucky escape. This also makes interesting reading, bear in mind that our 55 does almost 100mph now with no belts and smooth wide leather seats, it feels like sitting in the middle of a leather sofa driving fast! especially going around corners! I am starting to think 3 point not lap, now I have seen this man's crash photos too..
[url=https://www.356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6842]crashed my 356[/url]
Posted by: gary c - 01 February 2009 23:43:06
Seatbelts ruin a vintage car:!: Get a Euro Box, don't butcher a car that's survived 50 years. One day someone will be cursing you as they try to rid the car of the rotten things:evil: [/quote]
i am pretty certain that once seat belts have been " retro " fitted to a car that was not legaly required to have them fitted (pre 1965) and has then been through an annual MOT test - once it has been noted on the computer that seatbelts are fitted they cannot then be removed at a later date ? thats what i have been told by the guy who does my MOT's ?
Gary
Posted by: 54 Gertie - 01 February 2009 23:46:22
[quote=gary c]
Seatbelts ruin a vintage car:!: Get a Euro Box, don't butcher a car that's survived 50 years. One day someone will be cursing you as they try to rid the car of the rotten things:evil: [/quote]
i am pretty certain that once seat belts have been " retro " fitted to a car that was not legaly required to have them fitted (pre 1965) and has then been through an annual MOT test - once it has been noted on the computer that seatbelts are fitted they cannot then be removed at a later date ? thats what i have been told by the guy who does my MOT's ?
Gary[/quote]
That what I thought! Well, not the pre65 thing but I just assumed it applied to any era car!:wink:
Posted by: mrsherbie - 02 February 2009 11:18:03
I think it is a mixture of age and changing views, because I have always been 100% against retro fitting seatbelts too!! Because YES then they will always become included in the MOT from then on, BUT early Porsches are a very similar driving feel to a 50s beetle including the drum brakes! BUT they go much FASTER! And while I am not considering fitting belts to our old vw's, there is a big difference to even a small crash at 30-50mph that I might survive with head injuries, and crashing at 70+ where the odds are zero I would survive!
My life and my daughter still having a mother! is more important to me than someone in the future having to grind off some small plates and weld up a few holes.
Some things that many people find acceptable updates on beetles, I do not, for example, I would never change my cars 6V to 12V, or remove crossplies to fit radials, but many very stock and highly regarded as correct splits and ovals that I see at the stock shows in the UK each year have radials fitted. We all have different priorities so make different choices.
But I do think seatbelts are different.
It is luckily FAR easier to retrofit 3 point belts into a beetle than it is a 356! You see the problem in this link. I am not happy to fit this set up at all so I am considering a better option maybe a completely removable vintage style harness in cream to match interior. I just know that I dont want to be James Dean however cool he was!
[url=https://www.356registry.com/techinfo/safety/seat_belt_installation_maltby.html]belts in a 356[/url]
I do not care for the opinion of the 1 or 2 people who might 'frown' at the 1 or 2 shows we attend every year in the car which is otherwise completely stock/drum brakes/6v etc, and will certainly not affect me when I am in hospital after a crash or worse so will never affect my choice!
Sorry I forgot to take pics in the 59 before but will do this weekend.
Posted by: Hebster52 - 02 February 2009 12:05:06
It is not necessary you who are the cause of accident. Even if you drive carefully you never know when someone (housewife?) hits you in a crossing etc...
A -59 standard with seatbelts would not be that big of a deal IMO.
Not many years later they got the mounts for the seatbelts...
Here's where they were located on my former -63 standard:
[img]https://www.fvwa.sitefactory.fi/data/1240.JPG[/img]
Posted by: 55Kab - 12 February 2009 22:44:51
[quote=stu]
[img]https://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-9/1321960/georgekabcopy.jpg[/img]
looks better :wink: [/quote]
Nah, it needs chromed Fuch.:wink: :lol: Do your PS skills extend to that Anna?
Posted by: 55Kab - 12 February 2009 22:47:30
Oh, and on the topic, the 55Kab will get some nifty (removable!) rear seatbelt mounts for one side of the rear seat.:wink:
Can't see why my future little vdubber shouldn't enjoy a ride in the car and be as safe as possible. Each to their own on this subject.
Posted by: mark59 - 14 March 2009 10:20:55
Hello I would just add my thought having been in a similar dilemma recently. I am in the fortunate position of having a lovely original '59 Beetle: this is unrestored largely, only two previous owners and very 'original.' I picked it up as a 'hobby' car to tinker with, keep in the garage, preserve, restore gradually , drive locally and take to an odd 'meeting.' I also have a wife and 7 year old daughter. As a compromise I have fitted a single (hide-able) lap belt for my daughter in the middle rear... emphasising that I will only very rarely use this for short journeys and it is 'easy to tuck out of sight keeping the original look of the car. I also very carefully drilled and welded the plates underneath the body so that if I want ti drill out the welds in the future it will be easy. This solution has kept my wife happy for the very few miles I take my daughter out for a ride.
I guess i am lucky though because i have a separate modern daily driver and a '73 Beetle which has a much safer set up than the '59. This i would use for a spin on any longer distance or dodgy conditions/nigh-time etc.: It's not just the seat belts, the lighting is better (12v, and 'visibility' of all lights especially from the rear), the handling is better, (wheels tyres etc. and chassis set up), the speed is better, (less likely to get smacked in the rear going uphill), vision outwards is better, (bigger windows).
I would also say that if like me you have spent 30 odd years driving with a seatbelt, it feels most odd at first without one as a driver, and I think that many feel very insecure without the reassuring restriction of a belt! Driving an unbelted car with 34 hp and limited braking with old style tyres really makes you more aware as a driver, especially about speed. Perhaps all learners should have to do it! I am sure we have all been passed by kids/OAPs bombing around in overpowered modern cars for the most part unaware of the huge amount of energy such speeds generate (is it 'kinetic?') The old seatbelt giving them false confidence in their own or others safety!
